00:03:10: What is supposed by ‘continuers’
00:07:06: Interview 1: Andrew Aitken…
00:07:31: … significance of later-life careers
00:09:54: … challenges confronted
00:11:58: … significance of networks
00:13:00: … attaining longevity
00:17:37: Interview 2: Avivah Wittenberg-Cox…
00:18:44: … advantages to persevering with to work
00:22:58: … the employer perspective
00:26:51: … modifications to contemplate
00:32:46: … the place to start out
00:34:10: … Avivah’s profession recommendation
00:34:50: Closing ideas
Sarah Ellis: Hello, I am Sarah.
Helen Tupper: And I am Helen.
Sarah Ellis: And that is the Squiggly Careers podcast. This episode is a part of our Squiggly Profession Stage Collection, the place we’re speaking about 5 totally different profession levels, and sharing some insights and a few concepts that we hope will enable you particularly achieve these moments in your Squiggly Profession. We’re masking profession starters, returners, setbacks, changers, and as we speak our focus is on profession continuers.
Helen Tupper: And I’m obsessed with all of the levels that we have coated however I believe as we speak’s matter of continuers is only one the place I really feel like there’s nonetheless lots of work to do. Clearly, for people on this stage, that is likely to be you in case you’re listening, there is likely to be various issues so that you can do and take into account about your profession, which is what we’re making an attempt that can assist you with. However I simply really feel broadly, there may be extra work to be accomplished right here. And I am really actually enthusiastic about how Squiggly Careers could make that occur and be supportive to individuals at this stage. So, perhaps take into account as we speak’s episode a begin to our work on profession continuers.
We recognise that different individuals have experience that we do not on this space and that’s the reason we’ve got company on this episode to share a few of that with you. So, you’re going to hear from my dialog with Andrew Aitken, who’s an economist on the OECD. All sounds very formal, we do not usually have economists on the podcast. However the OECD is the Organisation for Financial Cooperation and Improvement. They work with over 100 international locations to advertise insurance policies that enhance financial and social wellbeing of individuals. They’ve accomplished a extremely good report, which I really went to Paris to launch, which is the report on selling higher profession decisions for longer working lives. There’s some very compelling analysis in that report about why we have to deal with careers in later life, each for people and their alternatives, and in addition economically why that may be a good factor. So, you are going to hear Andrew simply give a little bit of a abstract of a few of that stuff, I suppose, simply set the scene for profession continuers.
Then, you’re going to hear Sarah’s dialog with somebody that we’re a fan of all of her work on gender and generational variety, which is Avivah Wittenberg-Cox. And, Sarah, what can individuals count on from that dialog?
Sarah Ellis: You’ll be able to count on Avivah to be as sensible as she all the time is. So, she brings unbelievable power, she calls issues out, she’s very trustworthy and direct and she’s going to say what she thinks and the place there are gaps. She’s not afraid to truly make individuals conscious of these gaps. However she’s additionally obtained plenty of sensible expertise from the conversations that she’s having with individuals in later life profession stage, but in addition with organisations too. I might spend a very long time listening to Avivah. So, she is certainly value spending a while listening to and studying from.
Helen Tupper: And in addition to the conversations we’ve got as we speak on this episode, we have additionally obtained the Profession Continuers Information. That may be a PDF doc you can obtain without cost. We’ll hyperlink to it within the present notes. It contains coach-yourself questions, it is obtained a instrument so that you can check out so that you could replicate on this stage and what it means for you in the meanwhile. We have additionally obtained a further interview with Lyndsey Simpson who runs an excellent organisation known as the 55/Redefined Group. I believe they’re doing a little nice issues with firms on this specific area. So, please take a look at that, share this episode, share the information with anybody that is on this specific stage.
Sarah Ellis: And really, one of many issues that’s fascinating to learn a bit about is the way you describe and take into consideration this group. So, one of many issues that individuals reply very well to is once we share our Squiggly Swaps. So, these are phrases that we are able to use which might be far more reflective of how work feels proper now. So, quite than saying, “Oh, careers are about ladders”, they’re about squiggles; quite than saying, “They’re about titles”, they’re about abilities. And really, this was an episode the place we did discover it fairly onerous to call, to provide you with, effectively, how can we describe this in a manner that seems like individuals will recognise it? And we have form of gone with ‘continuers’ however I believe it was our greatest try, quite one which we felt was a proper reply. As a result of this concept of referring to individuals as ‘older employees’ I believe actually for me makes me fairly uncomfortable, as a result of I do not suppose individuals will discover that significantly motivating. Sure, you is likely to be older than you had been earlier than, however do you actually need to be described in that manner?
Helen Tupper: And at what level do you turn into an older employee? Is that once I’m over 45, over 50, over 55, over 60? Andrew will discuss it, however by 2050, one in 5 individuals will likely be over 65. Is that an older employee? I simply really feel like that does not match this stage.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and fairly a number of individuals really have gotten in contact with me about ageism and feeling like they’ve skilled discrimination due to their age, after they’ve been making use of for roles, perhaps as a result of individuals are making assumptions about, I do not know, how good they’re at expertise. And individuals are really saying, “Effectively, I am actually good at it”. Or, “Why would you need to do that job?” since you’ve been perhaps extra senior prior to now, however you maybe do not need to be main a giant group now, otherwise you need to work differently. However then, individuals are second-guessing nearly your motivations and what’s in it for you, and that making it then a lot tougher to get an interview or to get the roles that you just’re in search of.
So, it seems like there’s an actual disconnect between really, when I’ve spoken to individuals on this stage of their Squiggly Profession, what they’re saying to me, which isn’t usually that totally different from every other stage. For a few of these individuals, they are going to need to progress by altering careers; for a few of them, they need to develop their specialism. So, I really feel just like the profession dialog questions that you’ve with individuals at each stage of their Squiggly Profession is likely to be the identical. Truly, it is form of age agnostic. However perhaps the way you reply these questions does change as you become older. However nearly, the purpose at which they alter goes to be actually particular person. So, for some individuals you would possibly get to 50 and nothing would possibly change about your reply to these questions for one more ten years. For different individuals, perhaps that will likely be an actual tipping level to considering, I do not know, “I do need to do one thing totally different, or I need to work differently”. And this concept that we are able to categorise individuals by, “Oh, effectively, once you’re 50 to 65 –“
Helen Tupper: “You have to be considering this”.
Sarah Ellis: Yeah. You form of go, “However we might by no means say that about every other age”. So, it is that entire factor about, effectively, ask individuals what motivates them, ask individuals what they need from the work that they do, quite than assume, and I believe there are various assumptions about this group.
Helen Tupper: Yeah, I believe this can be a significantly necessary episode for individuals on each side of this profession stage dialog to take heed to. So, for the person who would possibly consider, “Effectively, I am a profession continuer, I really feel like I am going through into ageism and I really feel like that is one thing that I would like to handle for myself”, but in addition the particular person asking the questions, just like the supervisor or whoever. I believe all of us want to consider the language, all of us want to consider how we speak and assist individuals at this stage in the best way that works for them. And so hopefully, you will hear why we have to try this from Andrew, hopefully you will hear a bit about how you are able to do that from Avivah. Identical to this can be a stage for continuers, I believe that is additionally a dialog that Sarah and I wish to proceed past this episode.
Andrew, welcome to the Squiggly Careers podcast.
Andrew Aitken: Hello, Helen. Good to be with you.
Helen Tupper: I am actually glad to have a possibility to speak to you about later-life careers and to get your perspective, as a result of I’ve personally discovered the analysis that the OECD has accomplished on this area, I discovered it to be essentially the most particular and essentially the most helpful analysis that I’ve seen. So, I am actually completely satisfied that we will get a possibility to dive into it a bit extra deeply now with our viewers. Possibly let’s begin with a giant query to start with, which I believe some individuals would possibly suppose, Oh, Helen, we all know the reply to this”, however I am actually, actually to listen to it out of your perspective and with the analysis as effectively, why is it necessary for people and organisations to deal with later-life careers?
Andrew Aitken: Effectively, it is necessary as a result of older employees symbolize an rising share of the labour market. So, by 2050, it is projected that one in six employees will likely be over the age of 65 on common throughout OECD international locations. And naturally, with declining beginning charges, there are fewer youthful employees to exchange retirees. And on prime of that, you’ve got obtained lots of companies that are going through ability shortages and employee shortages. So, clearly, maintaining mid- to late-career employees, so roughly that is 45-plus, engaged totally within the workforce can clearly assist fill this hole. And the opposite factor after all is that have issues. So, we all know that older employees usually deliver stability, institutional data, networks and in addition mentoring potential, which may actually profit firms. So, there is a very robust enterprise case for specializing in mid- to late-career employees. And in addition, many individuals will want or need to work past conventional retirement ages. So, for some, it will be pushed by the necessity to transfer away maybe from work that is bodily demanding or mentally demanding, whereas for different individuals it is likely to be simply on account of altering preferences or modifications in well being standing or caregiving duties, for instance.
It is actually essential for governments, staff and social companions to rethink work constructions, which traditionally have tended to be fairly linear. You do your training, you then work, you then retire, and that is altering. And naturally, we’re additionally seeing that employment charges have improved dramatically. So, for instance, within the UK, within the final 20 years, amongst 55- to 64-year-olds, the employment charge has risen from 51% in 2000 to 65% in 2023. And much more dramatically, it is gone up at ages 65 to 69. So, the employment charge has greater than doubled from simply 11% in 2000 to 26% in 2023. So, we’re not speaking about one thing that is going to occur sooner or later, it is already occurred. So, mid-career and older employees are taking on an rising share of the of the workforce.
Helen Tupper: And doubling employment charges make it sound like that is all occurring very simply and really naturally and other people will simply method these totally different milestones of their profession and the alternatives will simply be open to them. However in actuality lots of people that I speak to do not discover it that straightforward. And I puzzled if we might simply speak in regards to the actuality for individuals who is likely to be approaching this specific stage of their profession and what are some potential challenges they is likely to be confronted with within the workforce as we speak, and what they will do in response to them?
Andrew Aitken: There’s undoubtedly lots of challenges. So, I imply an apparent one is age discrimination, which stays persistent. So, in a survey we did on the OECD with AARP in the US in 12 OECD international locations, we discovered that within the UK, simply over 30% of employees over the age of 45 had skilled age discrimination within the workforce. And it is not nearly hiring, it is also about alternatives for coaching, for instance. So, mid- to late-career employees usually tend to be neglected for coaching alternatives, for alternatives for promotion, for instance. That is a giant one. And naturally, it is not additionally structural or institutional ageism, however it may also be self-directed. And that is additionally associated to declining confidence in job search. So, as individuals become older, they are usually much less assured in in search of jobs. They perhaps have not had a lot expertise, as a result of they’ve perhaps been in a single job for fairly a very long time. And so, they don’t seem to be updated with the newest instruments and issues for really discovering work. You too can have self-directed ageism, which can be necessary to consider.
So, at a person degree, I believe elevating consciousness of how these ageist narratives can form notion is necessary. That actually feeds into simply broader discussions that we’ve got in public when it comes to the media, stereotypes and issues about age, so it is not nearly what occurs within the workforce, however broader societal dialogue can be necessary for that.
Helen Tupper: And I am simply occupied with the position of being an advocate and even an activist in such a profession, it is nearly like there is a rigidity between that will take lots of confidence, and your level is definitely some individuals at this stage haven’t got the arrogance. So, the necessity to turn into an advocate and activist concurrently, “I am not likely feeling very assured about making this alteration”, it is fairly fascinating. I simply puzzled whether or not the position in a neighborhood, feeling like, “I am not making this alteration alone, I am linked to a bunch of people who find themselves additionally a part of this profession stage and making an attempt to create extra alternatives”, whether or not you’d seen something in just like the position of communities and the way that would contribute to individuals?
Andrew Aitken: Yeah, that is necessary. We do see in survey responses that we have accomplished that always, individuals are in search of data on alternatives, and in addition simply assist to truly make modifications. Once more, some older employees simply haven’t got these networks, so constructing these networks might be actually necessary to getting within the door to having a job interview, for instance.
Helen Tupper: One of many bits within the analysis that caught out to me, and clearly I am taking a look at issues on a regular basis with like a Squiggly Careers lens on them, however there was a degree that I noticed about profession mobility and people who find themselves in later careers really making a transfer, doing a little bit of a change or a pivot or a squiggle, no matter you need to name it, however they’re really having plenty of advantages when it comes to their longevity, so mobility at midlife and past resulting in longevity of their profession. I ponder in case you might simply discuss that a bit of bit extra, as a result of I believe it is a actually fascinating level for individuals to consider, “Might this be the proper time for me to make a squiggle, significantly realizing what the analysis reveals on that time?”
Andrew Aitken: I imply, once we have a look at individuals who have really modified jobs or modified profession and might examine what occurred to their wages or traits of their work, like job satisfaction or totally different elements of their working situations, then we do have a tendency to search out they do enhance. We’re not saying something causal about this, simply an affiliation, however usually we do see that there’s an enchancment, in order that’s encouraging. You are inclined to see a lot smaller wage features in comparison with youthful age teams. I imply, clearly, at youthful ages individuals are simply transferring round, discovering a greater match. You are inclined to see greater wage features on the decrease finish of the age distribution in comparison with the older employees, however we nonetheless do see them. I imply, on this analysis, we’re not advocating that everybody ought to change jobs or change profession. For many individuals, they are going to be completely satisfied the place they’re, and that is likely to be greatest for them to remain the place they’re, and naturally, that is high-quality. However we’re simply mentioning that with longer working lives, it is simply extra probably that individuals are going to have to vary job or profession or need to change job or profession afterward in life.
Helen Tupper: And if I am a supervisor or somebody in HR who’s listening to this and desires to create an organisation that embraces later-life careers and that helps individuals, what are a few of the issues that you just suppose organisations must be taking a look at to ensure that that to occur?
Andrew Aitken: We have been speaking to lots of employers and we’re beginning to see employers implement some actually good packages, for instance, round coaching programmes focused at mid- to late-career employees. Additionally, within the space of age discrimination, there’s some actually good toolkits. So, within the UK, the Centre for Higher Ageing with CIPD has developed a toolkit known as Good Recruitment for Older Employees or GROW. So, that basically provides some greatest follow when it comes to what to do, when it comes to promoting for jobs and so forth, in order that the language, for instance, is age impartial. So, these actually sensible instruments are on the market. And as I say, focused coaching programmes. I imply, usually employers overlook, or they suppose that older employees, as a result of they’re older, that they are going to depart the workforce. However after all, really, there is a good likelihood {that a} 50-year-old goes to be round within the labour marketplace for one other 15, 20 years, whereas really youthful employees have a tendency to maneuver round extra. So, usually that does not actually make sense.
Actually making an attempt to faucet into the potential of older employees is absolutely necessary. And analysis that the OECD has accomplished really exhibits that multi-generational workforces can really enhance productiveness. So, when you have got youthful employees and older employees working collectively, this really improves productiveness. As I stated firstly, I imply, that is already the workforce that they’ve. So, the workforce of the longer term is already of their office now.
Sarah Ellis: So, I believe Andrew has accomplished an excellent job there of setting the scene once we take into consideration Squiggly Profession continuers. And I do suppose this concept of retiring retirement is one which’s in all probability been round for some time. I bear in mind studying a extremely good Harvard Enterprise Evaluate article from Tammy Erickson known as that, Retiring Retirement, 10 or 15 years in the past.
Helen Tupper: It is like 2004, that article, I believe!
Sarah Ellis: Is that how lengthy it’s?
Helen Tupper: Yeah!
Sarah Ellis: And I bear in mind considering, “Oh, okay, yeah, I can actually see why that is altering from really a monetary perspective, individuals will work for longer, but in addition which means and motivation. Folks need to hold working, however in all probability in fairly a distinct manner”. And I believe what Avivah will speak to you all about now’s, that is one thing that we all know, however there’s in all probability not sufficient motion. There is a little bit of a knowing-doing hole right here. And I believe what she is absolutely making an attempt to immediate and provoke goes, “We have got to start out doing issues in a different way now. We won’t look forward to different individuals to resolve this downside for us”. And if there’s anybody who’s gonna pioneer and champion change, I believe Avivah is an effective place to start out.
Avivah, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us on the Squiggly Careers podcast. I am actually trying ahead to our dialog as we speak.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: At all times a pleasure to be with you.
Sarah Ellis: So, I used to be studying in your LinkedIn profile, you have got an amazing assertion the place you say, “Careers was once a 30-year dash, and now they are a 50-year marathon”. And I used to be considering, I can not work out whether or not that is motivating on an excellent day, or demotivating perhaps on a foul day.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: I believe it is determined by your age.
Sarah Ellis: Possibly!
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: The youthful you’re, I believe the tougher that’s to listen to. The nearer you get to 50-plus, the extra enticing that concept turns into, as a result of individuals do not actually like the concept of stopping, doing nothing, going and taking part in golf. It is likely to be momentarily fascinating to some who’ve been drained out by many many years, however for many of us, what I name Q3-ers, or the individuals over 50 and underneath 75, it sounds a bit of uninteresting.
Sarah Ellis: And I used to be taking a look at some stats. So, by 2050, 25% of the OECD inhabitants will likely be over 65. Whenever you have a look at the newest McKinsey experiences, there’s some fascinating McKinsey analysis, you have a look at the work of anyone like Tammy Erickson, who really I got here throughout years and years in the past, the place she wrote this text for Harvard Enterprise Evaluate on Retiring Retirement, this concept of, there simply will not be this line within the sand in the identical manner anymore, the place you aimed for an age and precisely at that age, you stopped, after which your life flipped into one thing very totally different. So, if we have got individuals listening and perhaps they’re in that Q3, as you describe it, what are a few of the questions you’ll encourage individuals to be asking of themselves about their work and their profession? As a result of my assumption is your work will feel and look totally different at the moment, maybe than what you’ve got accomplished earlier than. However I believe this concept of, “Oh, however it’s going to simply cease”, that appears to be the factor that we’re transferring away from for some excellent causes. There’s plenty of advantages to persevering with to work, no matter that appears like.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: There’s plenty of advantages and we can have no selection. Let’s speak brutally actually. The demographic modifications that you just’re pointing to is mainly, we’re shifting from a human pyramid, the place for all of human historical past, we have been a number of previous individuals and a mass of younger individuals mainly financing our pensions, to an entire sq.. So, the pyramid’s gone, we’re now a sq., the place we’re generationally balanced. The workforce is definitely going to be 50% over 50, 50% underneath the age of fifty. That is a really totally different ballgame. And the youthful individuals get up to the truth that we can not retire, our pension methods is not going to final, governments cannot say that and proceed to be elected. So, there’s this ridiculous reality that everyone within the pension area is aware of, is we would not have the monetary wherewithal to retire on the ages our dad and mom might need. Get up! It truly is a barely terrifying factor. We’re not prepared, we do not actually know that, it is not being stated very clearly, and the sooner you realize that, it is even higher in case you perceive that at 20, as a result of it means you may then tempo your self and begin saving and getting ready for these marathon lives and careers the place, yeah, you may have a number of careers.
We’ve got this concept that we’ve got one profession and 20-year-olds are determined to search out out which one is the proper one. There isn’t any proper one. We’re a number of, multifaceted, multi-talented. These new longer careers, hopefully, on the upside, simply supplying you with the actually darkish draw back, the upside is that we are able to do and be many issues over time. And I believe we are able to strive our palms, and younger individuals already are. They have aspect hustles and multi-potentiates, within the language of one in every of my younger mates, and that is nice. I believe we can have richer and extra various careers and developments than we used to. It’s extremely onerous to be taught this at 60. Like, “Oh, at 60, I need to reinvent myself”. It is tougher than realising at 45 that really, post-50, I am far more intrinsically pushed. And usually, and I would say particularly girls, come 50, it is like, you realize what? I’ve given, I’ve accomplished, I am accomplished pleasing others, I’m now going to take heed to my very own motivations. What do I need to turn into once I really develop up? And folks over 50 are very a lot in the identical parallel journey as lots of people of their 20s. It is a journey of self-discovery, it is what do I need to be? What do I need to be taught? How do I need to reinvent? And overlook recreation. We need to go into recreation, and that is much more thrilling than a few years on the golf course.
Sarah Ellis: I used to be with a bunch final week, and all people on this group, and it was lots of of individuals, over 500 individuals, had been going by way of restructures and redundancy of their organisation. And I undoubtedly heard from a few of these individuals who had been older, who had been saying, “I’m involved that the job market works in opposition to quite than for me. Folks do not need to rent me as a result of I’m older”. And really, what I used to be listening to from these individuals was not a insecurity in themselves, of their abilities or of their skill to make use of tech. Typically, this stuff are far more mindset, in my expertise, than they’re to do along with your age. However their fear was how they had been going to be seen by different organisations, the judgment which may come their manner as a result of they don’t seem to be of their 20s or in that mid-period of the place you are actually going for it perhaps in your profession. I simply puzzled what your observations had been extra from an organization or an organisation perspective; and are you seeing organisations considering extra innovatively and proactively about this concept of a balanced workforce?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Not but. Early days, proper? So, this entire phenomenon of longevity and new demographics is just not precisely new, however it’s newly hitting actuality. So, the rubber now’s hitting the street, I would say, post-pandemic. We understood a bit of bit what was occurring and what was occurring to older individuals. So, I believe there’s lots of waking up gently. Now, we’re on the identical factor with the older, is that the elevated labour power of the final 10 or 15 years has been nearly solely older individuals staying in work longer, with a number of firms which might be welcoming that development. However on the entire, no, the office stays terribly ageist, and corporations and employers and particularly recruiters do not actually care if in case you have 20 years’ expertise or 5 years’ expertise. 5 is often higher as a result of the stereotypes, you are youthful, you are hipper, you are sooner to be taught, you are tech-friendly, none of which is true or confirmed.
The OECD has accomplished some nice research on the truth that in case you rent individuals in Q3, you even have extra loyalty, extra higher performing groups. You could have individuals who have a unprecedented quantity of information that they will prepare and develop the following technology. There are lots of upsides to intergenerationality, however you need to get by way of and within the door. And that’s nonetheless a little bit of a problem when hiring managers have been confirmed to be extremely ageist. So, the work once you’re on this place is to just accept that actuality and put together your self for it. They do not actually care about expertise. What they care about is credentials. So, present that you just’re open to studying, that you just’re open to tech, do the AI course, do the upskilling, do the certification. Even when it is simply stuff on LinkedIn Studying, or it would not must be you need to return for an engineering diploma of 5 years, you have got to have the ability to show, simply to beat stereotypes, that you’re open to studying, open to expertise, very prepared to adapt, and really expert at doing so. And that can reassure and overcome a few of the limitations to entry. After which all the strengths that older employees have might be delivered to bear within the office. However I believe it is only for us to calibrate the place we’re in historical past and that it will take.
Sarah Ellis: It is a systemic problem that we’re speaking about and as you’ve got described, not one thing that’s going to vary in a single day, so this can progress over time. However what would you prefer to see change shortly that you just suppose, “I’ve seen that there are some perhaps small actions that are not going to remodel all the things, however that do make a distinction”, whether or not these are issues that people can do or that organisations can do; what are these modifications that we must always all be contemplating?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Entrepreneurship for one. Once more, bear in mind girls, once we could not get into the company world or we could not get promoted? We began an terrible lot of companies and also you and I are fairly good examples of how that labored out for us. So, an enormous a part of entrepreneurship today is the over-50s, who’re seen as for every kind of causes. I would say one is entrepreneurship. Simply take into account it, discover it. And the opposite factor is, take a little bit of time. What lots of people do not do, particularly if they have been made redundant, or — it is a particularly emotional time. Large problems with standing and identification loss, and also you’re lonely and alone and we do not all the time share a few of these points. So, I would say take a pause, discover a group, do not go it alone, and use the chance of time to truly see this as a possibility to do one thing you would possibly quite do. Who’re you now? Who have you ever turn into? Take a bit of little bit of time to digest the previous.
Persons are fairly often in an excessive amount of of a rush in midlife transitions. They suppose it will be a query of months. It’s generally a query of years, as a result of we’ve got quite a bit to digest and to consider, and use the time and the chance and hopefully an excellent peer group or coaching programme or instructional useful resource to satisfy others in the identical state of affairs, and discover who you need to turn into subsequent. And see that as an journey and a possibility to turn into much more or do one thing that you just would possibly consider in additional, that you just is likely to be extra concerned with, that you just all the time needed to do however did not have time for. These are the moments, the items of those crises is to offer us an opportunity at reinvention. Seize it.
Sarah Ellis: And what’s one change that you really want organisations to make? A number of individuals working in organisations and might usually create change or affect change, or are in positions to foyer for a few of these modifications to occur. So, in an organisation, what do you need to see that is likely to be totally different that will assist this stability of intergenerational work?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Effectively, I am nonetheless at step one, which is get up! Organisations must get up to the brand new demographics. The quickest manner to try this is measure what share of your staff are over 50 and underneath 50, to grasp that the longer term is just not the younger in our new bizarre, sq. demographic form. The longer term is the older, as customers and as expertise. And so, the query is, in case you’re fully youth-oriented and suppose that you have to transfer these younger individuals in and thru your constructions the best way lots of skilled providers companies, for instance, are structured, the concept is, what if there aren’t any extra younger individuals? What if there are quite a bit fewer of them? And what if lots of the data really exists in individuals older than you are anticipating, they usually’re about to stroll out the door, or you’re kicking them out? So, get up to the truth that, yeah, your future lies on this generational, this new, solely new generational stability, which is able to take some consideration to design again in. We’re completely not designed for generational stability, we’re designed on the previous pyramid.
Sarah Ellis: And if you wish to see that very starkly, I used to be really studying the McKinsey report that we’ll put within the toolkit to assist this podcast, they usually have accomplished the diagrams.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: That is a fairly dire one, is not it?
Sarah Ellis: Yeah, they usually present how the pyramid is reversing, they usually present totally different international locations. However in each place internationally, the form is altering. And I believe the simplicity, we frequently speak in regards to the metrics that matter, or measure what issues, I believe the simplicity of your advice of going, “Effectively, simply what share are underneath 50 and over 50?” I believe that is one thing that each organisation would have that knowledge available, whether or not they’re selecting to make use of that knowledge or selecting to share that knowledge. However I believe that is additionally a courageous factor for organisations to do. Such as you stated on gender, earlier than you needed to do it, there have been these organisations that had been like, “Effectively, we’re selecting. We’re not being made to do that, however we will select. And we’d not be the place we need to be as we speak”, however really by selecting to share it, you present that you’re giving it the eye, precisely as you’ve got described.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: And simply so as to add, as a result of some firms will try this on the expertise HR aspect, you additionally need to do it on the patron aspect, much more on the patron aspect, they’re youth addled and youth-focused, when all of the property, all the cash, all of the buying energy is within the over-50 Q3 shopper. And understanding that and adapting to that actuality, which can be more and more feminine, as a result of that is one other overlap between gender and age, is girls are set to be inheriting and making an enormous wealth switch within the coming many years. Corporations would possibly need to control that too. There’s an enormous quantity of alternative on this longevity financial system for firms that will likely be one step forward of the sport, simply as there was in gender.
Sarah Ellis: If anyone is listening now and they’re occupied with re-imagining what retirement’s going to appear like for them, so that they’re on this transition interval, and perhaps they don’t seem to be certain the place to start out, so that they know the place they’re, however they’re like, “The place do I’m going first?” the place would you level individuals to only begin studying a bit of bit extra, whether or not that is one thing to learn, watch or take heed to?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: They’ll come and do my brief, three-session on-line course, known as the Midlife Rethink. I am operating one in April. They’ll search for the #careerscanchange, which is one thing organised by Phoenix Group, an insurance coverage firm within the UK, that is introduced collectively over a dozen firms which might be all engaged on midlife transitions. And so they can search for, even within the UK, there is a nationwide programme of what is known as the Midlife MOT, which is a service in job centres to assist individuals rethink and reevaluate the place they’re and the place they need to go subsequent. If they have a bit extra money and a bit extra time, they will try Oxford has a brand new six-month programme the place you may go and spend the six months with a bunch of mid-life professionals occupied with their subsequent steps. A rising variety of universities world wide are including in these sorts of programmes. So, there’s extra assets coming.
Sarah Ellis: And we all the time end our knowledgeable interviews by asking you to share your greatest piece of profession recommendation with our listeners. So, these may very well be your personal phrases of knowledge or one thing that somebody has shared with you that is simply actually caught?
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: My regular profession recommendation is take heed to all people, learn all the things after which ignore all of it and do what your intestine tells you.
Sarah Ellis: I like that! Keep curious after which true to your self on the identical time. Thanks a lot and we all the time love speaking to you and love following your work.
Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: My pleasure, Sarah, pretty to be with you.
Helen Tupper: So, I hope you feel knowledgeable and impressed with that dialog with Avivah, which is all the time how I come out of any dialog with Avivah. Please do comply with and assist her work, learn the article the OECD have written, obtain the information, as a result of these issues are there that can assist you, and please share them with different those who is likely to be at this stage as effectively.
Sarah Ellis: However that is all the things for this episode. Thanks a lot for listening and we’re again with you once more quickly. Bye for now.
Helen Tupper: Bye everybody.