00:00:00: Introduction 00:01:22: Joyful Excessive Standing defined 00:05:04: Turning into a slapstick comedian 00:11:08: Describing your self utilizing adjectives aside from “assured” 00:16:03: Coping with obstacles to Joyful Excessive Standing 00:27:40: Dip a toe within the “what if” water 00:33:53: Effectively-known examples of Joyful Excessive Standing 00:41:20: Viv’s profession recommendation 00:43:21: Last ideas
Sarah Ellis: Hello, I am Sarah and that is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. On this episode, you will hear me in dialog with Viv Groskop, exploring the thought of one thing known as Joyful Excessive Standing, a brand new and I feel very helpful tackle how we will construct our self-belief. I hope you take pleasure in listening to our dialog collectively. Viv is sensible, insightful, and what I notably recognize is how reasonable and related her concepts and perspective is on how everybody can improve their confidence, or to make use of her phrase, obtain Joyful Excessive Standing. I hope you discover this a helpful episode. So Viv, welcome again to the Squiggly Careers podcast. It has been some time since we final talked about it, however you even have one of many very uncommon privileges, if that is the correct phrase, of being a repeat visitor on the Squiggly Careers podcast. Viv Groskop: It’s a nice privilege and I really feel like I am a really squiggly individual, so I am at all times completely satisfied to squiggle once more. Sarah Ellis: You’re, you might be. And you have a brand new ebook out, known as Joyful Excessive Standing. And I first got here throughout this idea the place you kind of touched on it, you’d definitely launched it to me, once I learn The right way to Personal the Room, however I really feel such as you’ve taken it a lot, a lot additional having dived into it. So, I feel we do want to begin in the beginning as a result of a lot of individuals will not be accustomed to the idea. What’s Joyful Excessive Standing; and likewise, why may or not it’s extra helpful for us than simply confidence, after we’re serious about our careers? Sarah Ellis: Yeah, Joyful Excessive Standing was an thought I touched on in passing in my earlier ebook, The right way to Personal the Room: Ladies and the Artwork of Good Talking. And, I suppose I might have liked to have written extra about it then, however I did not really feel like I fairly had the language to clarify it to individuals. And I needed to do a undertaking the place I used to be actually talking to ladies in regards to the difficulties that sure teams of individuals have talking in entrance of others, all of the issues that maintain us again, and I used to be so centered on that. And the suggestions that I bought all through that undertaking was, “Inform us extra about Joyful Excessive Standing”. And so I believed, “Oh, okay, I’ve license to do that”. And it additionally opens up the dialog, as a result of I do suppose we must always pay particular consideration to sure teams of society who do not naturally have entitlement. Ladies have solely been within the office for, let’s be beneficiant and say 100 years, and there is nonetheless a great deal of points round variety and inclusion that imply that sure individuals discover it tougher to get heard than others. So I feel that is actually vital. And Joyful Excessive Standing permits me to point out that is one thing for everybody, completely everybody. The rationale I name it Joyful Excessive Standing, and I am going to clarify in a second a bit extra about what precisely that’s, and never confidence, is as a result of it is a new factor, and it is one thing nobody’s ever heard of, and it is one thing you need to take into consideration and suppose, “Okay, what’s Joyful Excessive Standing? What am I like when I’ve that?” It does not have the luggage that all of us have from childhood of confidence. So many people have had damaging messages about confidence from childhood, whether or not it’s, “Oh, you are too assured, why do not you pipe down? Oh, have a look at her, she’s filled with herself, she’s too assured”; or the other, “Oh, you simply want a bit bit extra confidence, after which every thing might be high quality”. However no one really ever defines what that confidence is. There by no means appears to be the correct quantity of it, everybody both has an excessive amount of or too little, and no one explains how do you really get it; what does it appear like? And nobody admits that it is fully subjective. The concept of Joyful Excessive Standing comes not from me, it comes from improv comedy and theatre by way of the Nineteen Sixties and Nineteen Seventies. It was pioneered by this wonderful director, known as Keith Johnstone, who wrote a ebook known as Standing, and it truly is about accessing a impartial, magnanimous, beneficiant a part of your self. In tacky self-help phrases, you may name it your greatest self if you’d like.  I consider it as being your least self-conscious self, as a result of that is one of many largest issues in proudly owning the room and exhibiting up and doing issues in entrance of different individuals; we really feel self-conscious. And after we really feel self-conscious, we really feel the other of assured. So, Joyful Excessive Standing is you when you find yourself not self-conscious. So, step one is pondering of a time once you’re not self-conscious, and for most individuals, that is both going to be with buddies, with household, it could possibly be with colleagues who you actually belief and you actually like, in an area the place you do not second-guess your self, the place you are not pondering, “What’s everybody pondering of me? Oh, no, what if I say this?” Effectively, you are positively not pondering that. That is the start of your Joyful Excessive Standing, and it should look completely different on everybody. So, in some individuals, it should be fairly quiet and calm, perhaps a bit bit reclusive; in different individuals, it should be actually noisy and ebullient. So, Joyful Excessive Standing is a manner of actually broadening and personalising this definition of confidence. Sarah Ellis: And so there, you described Joyful Excessive Standing as some brilliance that you’ve got borrowed from improv, and also you made an extremely squiggly transfer in your profession. So, you have at all times been a author, you have labored in journalism, however you grew to become otherwise you kind of added to your squiggliness, slapstick comedian. Now, that’s not one thing that everyone expects so as to add to their squiggle, I do not suppose throughout their profession, and also you talked about this concept of not feeling self-conscious. I am unable to consider an instance of a career the place you are feeling extra self-conscious than being a slapstick comedian, the place you are in entrance of a great deal of people who find themselves primarily there to guage you and to go, “Do I discover this individual humorous?” and also you pondering, “I do not know, are they going to search out me humorous?” So, speak to us a bit bit about that for you personally, as a result of I feel individuals will discover that basically fascinating, as a result of did you discover that you simply hadn’t bought Joyful Excessive Standing and then you definitely’ve kind of realized find out how to entry it after which the advantages of it; did you’ve got a little bit of it; how has that labored for you personally? Viv Groskop: Yeah, the idea of Joyful Excessive Standing is one thing I discovered about once I was in all probability six months in to beginning stand-up. So, this is able to be greater than ten years in the past, round 2011, which is once I did my 100 gigs in 100 consecutive nights, which led to the primary ebook I wrote that is known as I Laughed, I Cried: How One Lady Took on Stand-Up and (Nearly) Ruined Her Life, and that was a very good instance of a sort of squiggly pivot, should you like, that I realised I needed to do stand-up, needed to see if I may make it work. I may proceed with my freelance journalism, so I nonetheless had my fundamental job going. I am actually fortunate that I have been freelance for nearly 25 years now, so I am used to managing that ebb and movement of labor, and I am used to the hit charge of rejection that you have to soak up that line of labor. So, I had that flexibility in my life to tackle a facet undertaking and see if it may go someplace. So, I began to do stand-up pondering, “This might slot in someplace, or perhaps it will not, or perhaps I am unable to do it, or perhaps I can do it, however I am unable to make any cash at it”, and I needed to fast-track the method. I feel once you do have these sorts of profession squiggles, it is advisable attempt to do issues which are going to problem you. The coach Tara Mohr, who’s the creator of Taking part in Huge, she would name this a leap. So, you select one thing that represents an enormous leap for you that may be achieved in a short time in a really quick period of time that can train you one thing. So it could possibly be something from, as a substitute of planning a web site for six months and going by way of 67 completely different graphic designers searching for the proper one, you determine that your leap is the web site goes up tomorrow; or your leap is, as a substitute of serious about someday you might need a publication, properly, you are going to ship out a publication every single day this week. And leaps are so helpful, simply making your self do issues and have an accountability buddy to make you do it. For me, I am actually good at doing issues in secret. I do not like telling different those who I am doing issues. Different individuals want to inform any person else they’re doing it to allow them to say, “You recognize you stated you have been going to try this factor, did you do it?” So with stand-up, I resolved to do that 100 gigs in 100 consecutive nights, and that was in 2011. And round that point, I heard about this idea, Joyful Excessive Standing, and began digging into what it appears to be like like. And it is precisely as you described, that you actually need it on this technique of stand-up, the place you might be so self-conscious once you first begin doing that as a result of you don’t have any expertise, you don’t have any expertise, you do not know find out how to cope if one thing goes incorrect, you do not know why someday it goes actually badly and the subsequent day it goes very well, you are simply so clueless! And it’s totally straightforward to change into self-obsessed. And when you’re self-obsessed, you change into extra self-conscious, and any viewers goes to learn that off you in a second. So, it is advisable actually discover ways to focus away from your self. Joyful excessive standing is, like I stated, it is once you’re with your pals and you are not self-conscious. Once you’re in that zone, you might be centered on the opposite individuals. You are pondering, “Are they understanding what I am saying; are they having an excellent time; is that individual listening; how’s that individual doing?” You are not serious about your self and what everybody’s serious about you. So, if you will get into that zone and produce it on stage with you… So after all in stand-up, it’s totally counterintuitive as a result of it is simply you speaking. But when you can begin to suppose, “Yeah, I do know that is simply me speaking, however really it is a dialogue as a result of we’re making eye contact with one another, I can see should you’re understanding or not, I can hear should you laughed or not, and I can dig into the bits the place you snort laborious, or again off should you did not snort, pace up, decelerate”. You be taught to deal with issues as a dialogue and make different individuals, not even an equal companion within the dialog, they’re a very powerful companion. Then you definately entry this very actual, grounded sort of confidence the place every thing is not all about you. We spend a lot time making every thing about ourselves, and it’s very comprehensible. All of us should do scary issues, and within the fashionable world, we face judgment on all sides. It does not actually matter whether or not you are a slapstick comedian and also you’re a celeb and you have one million followers otherwise you’ve simply bought ten individuals who subscribe to your publication, certainly one of them goes to jot down again and say, “I did not just like the font that you simply used on this headline”. There’s criticism in all places, and this simply actually treats it as all a part of the method.  And so that you think about, how do I make this much less about me, how do I be much less self-conscious, how do I make this convenient, how do I make this palatable for different individuals, how do I make them include me, in order that it isn’t nearly you getting up there, surviving and getting off once more, it is actually about making a second of connection. And that is the place this lack of self-consciousness actually kicks in. It really is probably the most great feeling on this planet once you’re in that zone and also you’re connecting with different individuals since you really feel a part of one thing. And that is all any of us are actually right here for. Sarah Ellis: And one of many issues I discovered actually helpful as I used to be studying by way of Joyful Excessive Standing is you’ve got prompts on the finish of a chapter. Typically they’re workouts, or generally they’re questions, and one of many issues that stood out to me was, “Know why you care about being extra assured”, and likewise perhaps discovering adjectives which are much less demanding than the phrase assured; as a result of as you have been describing that then by way of going, “Effectively, this isn’t about me and that is extra about perhaps how am I making different individuals really feel, and the way can I be helpful for different individuals”, I discovered each of these actually useful. I feel they cease you from falling into the entice of this kind of sweeping assertion of, “Effectively, I am simply not a assured individual”, limiting ourselves earlier than we even get began, to truly saying, “Effectively, when, when do you need to be extra assured? Is it with a specific individual; is it in a specific assembly; is it once you stand on stage? which it isn’t at all times that, however for some individuals it typically is presenting. After which fairly than simply going, “Oh I need to be extra assured”, really articulating, “Effectively, what are the phrases I need individuals to make use of to explain me?” So I used to be pondering, “Okay, what would that be for me once I’m operating, say, workshops for individuals?” And I used to be like, “In fact I do need to be assured, however actually what I need to come throughout as is optimistic, empathetic and educated”. And for me, I discovered that rather more useful as a place to begin as then pondering, “Effectively, if that is what I am attempting to attain, what does that imply then by way of what I would do and the way I present up?” What did you purpose for once you have been doing a lot of stand-up comedy in a really quick house of time and also you have been making this transition away from simply, “Crikey, I simply have to be assured and perhaps strive to not fear about individuals, whether or not they snort or not”; what have been these phrases that sprung to thoughts for you? Viv Groskop: I might typically have a phrase similar to the phrases that you simply’re describing. That is simply such an ideal interpretation of what I am attempting to get throughout. Thanks. You recognize, you will be optimistic and educated fairly simply, and you’ll channel these issues fairly simply, and so they’re very particular. And you’ll suppose instantly, “What are the issues that I can say that might be optimistic? What’s the vibe that I can channel that can make me look optimistic? How can I make that clear in my language and my interactions with individuals?” Whereas should you say, “I simply need to be assured”; what? So with me in stand-up, I used to suppose, “Heat, be heat, you are going to be heat right here”. Or generally I would suppose, “Wow, I need individuals to suppose, wow”. I used to be at all times attempting out, you already know, you are doing 5 minutes, 10 minutes, then you definitely’re working as much as 20 minutes, then you definitely do an Edinburgh present, which is an hour, and I did six years of Edinburgh exhibits. So, typically forward of a present, I might have perhaps a unique goal for various elements of the present. So, part of the present can be heat, one other half can be charisma, one other half can be dynamism, one other half can be decelerate, one other half can be go deep, do not be afraid to go deep. So, something which means one thing to you and may be very particular and is one thing you could really do… I discover for some individuals one thing like readability is definitely actually helpful. That is fairly helpful in lots of jobs, is do not attempt to deliver confidence, attempt to deliver readability or attempt to deliver concision, these are actually helpful issues, or attempt to be succinct. As a result of these issues are very exact, they’re very achievable. You’ll know on the finish, it is a actually essential factor really, you’ll know on the finish should you did that factor or not. With stand-up, I at all times needed to suppose, “Effectively, was I really heat? Did I put it throughout as wow?” Not each viewers goes to love it and never everybody’s going to suppose, “Wow”, however I did it and I attempted my greatest, I ticked it off. I am at all times looking for issues the place I can tick it off and suppose, “Effectively, I did the factor”, as a result of as soon as you have put it on the market, you are not in charge of the result, regardless of how assured you might be or how wow or wonderful you might be, there’ll at all times be any person who did not prefer it or at all times be any person who’s bought some sort of suggestions for you, and that is okay. You’ll be able to take that or not take that. We may have a complete different podcast about find out how to outline whether or not suggestions is value taking or not; that is a complete life talent! But when you already know for your self that you simply did the factor, whether or not it is optimism, present your data, be concise, be succinct. For me, it will generally be, do three new jokes. Did I do three new jokes? Yeah, tick, properly achieved, good. And generally it will be issues like, do not beat your self up, or be free, or get it incorrect tonight, or be completely different to the final individual. I simply would set myself achievable objectives. And if I simply saved that in thoughts whereas I used to be speaking, it helped me keep centered on the aim fairly than being centered on my self-consciousness. Sarah Ellis: And so, what can we do within the inevitable scenario the place another person is getting in the way in which of our Joyful Excessive Standing? So I feel, “Okay, properly I do know what that appears like for me. I need to be, for instance, optimistic and empathetic”. And then you definitely’re at work and also you’re in a gathering with somebody who appears decided to be pessimistic and to perhaps take the other strategy, and you actually really feel like they’re making you are feeling self-conscious as a result of they’re judging you, and you’ll see that somebody is not responding very properly. And so, they is likely to be being intentionally troublesome or it would simply be that they’re completely different otherwise you’ve caught somebody on a nasty day, all of these issues. And I feel in my remark, the problem is that we at all times make these issues about us once more. So, again to your level about, “It isn’t about me”, you already know, you’ve got a dialog along with your boss and it does not go properly, you kind of go, “I do not suppose they suppose I am good sufficient”. We return to a few of these, we name them gremlins, confidence gremlins, beliefs that get in our manner. So, I can think about right here pondering, “I’ve bought the perfect intentions to have Joyful Excessive Standing”, after which how do you cease it kind of seeping away the minute one thing threatens it? Viv Groskop: Yeah, the second you are describing is admittedly when your ego is coming underneath assault, and ego is admittedly vital as a result of ego protects us from lots of issues in life, it permits us to shine in sure environments, it permits us to have satisfaction and dignity, however generally our ego takes a little bit of a success.  And in stand-up, this is able to be the second perhaps the place any person heckles you, or the place you’ve got a protracted tumbleweed silence, which is definitely worse than a heckle. And so these issues are wounding. Many, many issues in life are a bit heckle to our ego. And Joyful Excessive Standing is about staying sturdy and grounded in your ego and recognising that you simply’re ok, you have bought this, not every single day will be good, not each argument will be received, not each colleague goes to be your greatest good friend, not each boss goes to be in your facet; however kind of you have bought this, you are studying the teachings, you are doing all of your greatest, and your ego can’t actually be attacked should you keep in Joyful Excessive Standing. So generally for me, if I am feeling my buttons are being pushed, which they frequently are as a result of I am a human being, and all of us endure so many slights and humiliations. You recognize, I’ve interviewed almost 200 individuals on my podcast, The right way to Personal the Room, and that could be a dialog with unbelievable individuals like Hillary Clinton and Margaret Atwood, Professor Mary Beard, and so they’ve all had common assaults to their ego from every kind of various sources. So, selecting out the moments when these pricks come — oh, that is a very vibrant factor I’ve simply stated — however you already know what I imply, pricks to the ego and other forms of pricks, and selecting out these moments once you’re being wounded and pondering, “Oh, that is once I must dig into my Joyful Excessive Standing, that is when –“, simply suppose, you do not say this to different individuals as a result of they suppose that you simply have been mad, however simply suppose to your self, “Oh, yeah, that is it, I am being triggered a bit bit right here. How can I simply breathe and hear and see what’s actually occurring, and step again a bit bit, and never enable myself to have my buttons pushed? How can I take a second to step again and never react?” Typically it is about saying to that different individual, “Inform me extra about why you are feeling this manner”, or repeating what they stated and say, “Once you say this factor, I am listening to this; is that proper?” and really giving them extra room within the dialog in order that they actually get out regardless of the aggressive factor is or the troublesome factor or the hostile, actually get it out. You recognize, generally in comedy with a heckler, you have interaction with them. Typically, not at all times, you have interaction and you’ve got a chat and it would really result in one thing that’s then helpful so that you can use within the room. However one other actually vital rule that’s related to that’s, choose your battles. So, not each battle you may win, you simply cannot. And in comedy, for instance, there are some heckles that you simply need to reply to and use and incorporate and may make it extra enjoyable for everybody; however there are some heckles which are going to spoil every thing for everybody and that characterize a battle you may’t win, and in comedy there is a protocol for that and that individual could be faraway from the room.  So, should you insert that concept into a piece context, you may suppose, “You recognize what, if we have been in a comedy membership proper now, the bouncers can be strolling you out of it”. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, good! Viv Groskop: However you may’t do this, that is not going to occur, so I am simply going to have to face my floor and repeat the mantra in my head of, “Choose your battles, choose your battles, choose your battles”. As a result of generally, if that is a couple of very delicate difficulty, like I do not know, a sexist remark or a racist remark or a homophobic remark, you need to be actually cautious about the way you reply to that. You may need to suppose, “Okay, on this second I am unable to choose this battle as a result of it should be the equal of going nuclear. However I’ll stroll out of this assembly and I’ll make a bit word of what was stated and at what time. After which if there is a sample of these issues, then I can take these to any person”. That is an excellent Joyful Excessive Standing response that does not make you too susceptible. So, studying when to reply, whether or not it is you having your buttons pushed, or whether or not it is you being tempted to wade right into a battle you could’t win, you already know, we will not win the battle in opposition to 4,000 years of patriarchy. Do not go into a gathering attempting to win that battle, simply go into the assembly being your self and attempting to maintain your ego in verify. Sarah Ellis: Somebody as soon as stated to me, once I suppose I used to be discovering this difficult — I feel lots of the time I might describe myself as having a Joyful Excessive Standing, however there would make sure individuals the place I might fully capitulate. And for me, that by no means seemed like profitable, that seemed just like the introvert in me actually withdrawing. And then you definitely come out of these conferences and people conversations, and also you’re actually annoyed as a result of you already know you have not achieved your self justice; you have not shared your opinions, you have not had the gravitas that you’ve got the remainder of the time, after which any person — and I get very distracted by the opposite individual, primarily. And being frank, I blame different individuals, aside from myself, I would be like, “It is their fault and it is their behaviour”. Then somebody stated to me, “Effectively, simply take into consideration how a lot time and house that individual is occupying in your mind”, so like how a lot are they dominating your ideas, say, that night? And I is likely to be like, “Oh, it is all I may take into consideration”, as a result of I am an actual thinker. After which they stated, “And the way a lot time and house do you suppose you occupy of their ideas?” And I used to be like, “Zero, like 0%”. And that was actually transformational for me to only sort of go, “Effectively really, I must additionally take a little bit of accountability if I need the Joyful Excessive Standing”. And so it is a selection, understanding that you’ve got a option to not should really feel like you need to win or not really feel like you need to withdraw or, yeah, it is a prick to your ego, however that is okay. Figuring out that I’ve bought a selection, I can get well from that shortly. All of us like selection and management, proper, it helps us I feel everyday, and I feel what you are describing as properly goes, “You’ve got decisions”.  When one thing threatens your Joyful Excessive Standing, you’ve got a selection as a comic: do you reply, do you not reply; how do you reply?  Figuring out we have these decisions I feel is admittedly empowering. Viv Groskop: Yeah, precisely. It is also about actually judging the extent of self-criticism that you simply’re bringing to that interplay. As a result of as you say, they don’t seem to be serious about you, it isn’t an enormous deal. You are the one who’s blowing it up into this huge factor. And it is extremely troublesome to suppose to your self, “Effectively, simply do not do this”. You deliver consciousness to that scenario and suppose, “Effectively, is it really benefiting me to overanalyse this? Or, is that this individual really fairly troublesome with everyone? And, am I not that skilled speaking to them about this factor that we’re concerned in collectively?” Possibly there’s a little bit of an influence imbalance, and it will be very tough so that you can get the higher of them. I’m discovering, opening up this dialog about this new ebook, Joyful Excessive Standing, with individuals, it is a query individuals are coming to me with probably the most is, “What do you do should you work with somebody who’s unattainable?” And once I dig into that, they’re fairly often speaking about any person who’s a narcissist of some sort. These phrases are sort of overused now, however everyone is aware of what sort of individual we’re speaking about there; any person who sucks the entire life out of the room, or any person who solely needs to have their very own voice heard. I haven’t got an excellent reply in these conditions. I might not need to be a colleague of Donald Trump or Boris Johnson. I am sorry if I am offending anyone’s political sensibilities, I am simply drawing a broad brush right here as a result of I feel everyone knows what is going on on! I would not need to be a colleague of these individuals; that may be a waste of my time, it will be a waste of my power to work out how do I work together with that individual, how do I be heard by them. That for me personally is a dropping battle. For different individuals, they could suppose, “No, really, I need to take this on, I need to discover a manner”. However you need to recognise that you’ve got chosen a path that not very many individuals would select and that’s doubtlessly unwinnable, really. I might give the recommendation in that scenario, should you actually are working with any person fully unattainable, however you need to keep within the scenario and never go off and have one other Squiggly Profession, which is what I might advise, what you actually need is extra self-care, in order that when you find yourself within the scenario with that individual, you might be absolutely rested, you might be correctly exercised, you are absolutely hydrated, you sleep very well, so that you simply’re at all times bringing your most constructive and bodily relaxed model of your self into these interactions. And then you definitely might need a little bit of an opportunity at touchdown some blows in that very troublesome battle. However more and more, these jobs are full of people who find themselves extremely careworn. I work with some individuals and we’ll discuss these sorts of points and so they’ll say, “I have never had an excellent night time’s sleep in 4 years”, or they are going by way of a relationship breakup or they’re having an issue with certainly one of their kids. And in that scenario, you are not going to have the ability to go right into a scenario with a troublesome individual and one way or the other win in opposition to them, it is a ridiculous problem to set your self. Sarah Ellis: I positively realized that the laborious manner. It is actually attention-grabbing listening to you replicate in that manner, as a result of if I take into consideration when I’ve been in a position to sort of retain the Joyful Excessive Standing, it was as a result of, you already know, perhaps I wasn’t coping with that individual every single day, so it was extra occasional, so I may kind of address that, and usually the remainder of my life was going properly. Whereas, if I take into consideration the time the place I walked away, to your level by way of generally perhaps the correct factor to do is squiggle, I bear in mind pondering, “Did I fail at that? Was that my difficulty?” However really to your description, I feel I walked away as a result of additionally I used to be in part of my life the place I’d simply had a child, I used to be getting back from maternity depart, I would bought a very lengthy commute, and I used to be in that actual scenario. I used to be like, “I am unable to win right here, so have you learnt what, I’m going to stroll away”. If something, I left it too lengthy to make that call, in case that is helpful for any of our listeners. One of many different concepts I actually preferred within the ebook, that I did a bit bit of additional underlining of, was this idea that you simply describe as, “Dip a toe within the ‘what if’ water”, and I used to be like, Oh, I actually like that, I feel that is actually memorable”.  I at all times like a memorable, sticky phrase that I can think about repeating and sharing with a lot of individuals. So, may you describe a bit extra for our listeners, what is that this water; why is it vital; and what does that virtually appear like, the “what if” water? Viv Groskop: That is actually an thought that’s about experimentation. And once more, it is actually realized principally from stand-up comedy for me, though I’ve utilized it to so many different issues, together with journalism, writing non-fiction, you already know, I’ve written six books now. I additionally began writing radio performs and different squiggles — Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I noticed that. Viv Groskop: — a couple of years in the past, I’ve achieved seven radio performs now, I’ve written six Edinburgh exhibits. And it is actually about giving your self permission to ask, “Effectively, what if I can do that? What if I can discover a manner of doing this that’s like one thing that I already know find out how to do?” Or, “What if I simply want to talk to any person who’s already achieved this earlier than?” What if simply permits you to suppose very overtly. After I first began doing stand-up, I believed to myself, “Effectively, what if I did this each night time for 100 nights; what if?” as a result of then I am going to know in three months whether or not I am any good or not, it will not take me a 12 months. And it was such a releasing factor. And we do not ask ourselves, “What if?” sufficient. So, you already know, what should you do not want your entire wage this month and you retain 10% of it again for this different undertaking you need to work on? What should you even have a good friend who will construct you a web site without spending a dime? What should you really do not want a web site, you may simply begin asking individuals, “Can I do that piece of be just right for you?” It is only a very, very fundamental and releasing thought to have this what-if power of openness and asking, as a result of it is so apparent for what is going on on round us, you already know, the tempo of change, the tempo of our careers now, which is insane. Folks used to say we’ll have 5 careers in a lifetime. That now could be a conservative estimate, we’re all going to have many alternative careers in our lifetimes. So, what if every thing you already know is incorrect? What if every thing you already know is totally simply an assumption? I completely found this in comedy. What if a heckle is just not an insult, it is a present? What if a nasty gig is definitely your path to doing the perfect gig that you’ve got ever achieved? What if a two-star evaluation really connects you with any person who then turns into an enormous fan of your work? There are such a lot of issues. I at all times love that — properly, that is acceptable, really, I’ve simply remembered this, the Rudyard Kipling poem, If, which talks about success and failure being imposters who’ve the identical face. So, many occasions we expect one thing is a failure and three years down the road, such as you’re saying, you already know, it appeared like a failure strolling away from this job. Smartest thing you ever did, you would like you probably did it earlier. Identical with me, I took a redundancy once I was 27. My dad and mom have been horrified. Smartest thing I ever did, by no means labored once more, at all times labored for myself after that. Different issues that really feel like a hit, you already know, “Oh my God, I bought five-star evaluation for the present, I bought this evaluation on this wonderful place, this well-known individual got here to see me”, and so forth. Three years down the road, I can see really, “No, that present just about tanked and I used to be sort of being a bit lazy in that present”. So, typically issues that appear like a hit later end up to not be, and issues that appear like a failure transform the perfect factor ever. And that is a barely miserable factor to be taught generally, is that nothing is admittedly fastened by way of whether or not it is actually nice or whether or not it is actually horrible. However for me, that’s the what-if power of, “Effectively, what if that is all going to be okay?” Or, what if this wonderful factor is simply the beginning, or it is a pivot, or it isn’t going to transform so wonderful, however then you may course-correct. There is a huge, huge freedom there of not at all times attempting to get every thing good, get every thing proper. For me, something that opens up your thoughts to, “Effectively, how can I experiment? How can I simply give this a go along with a minimal value to myself?” You do not need to be doing issues which are — I used to be actually cautious early on in comedy, and I did not need to do issues that basically put me off. I attempted to not do gigs that may be super-terrifying and scary, or manner out of my consolation zone. Take child steps in these experiments however take these leaps, you already know, issues that you are able to do actually quick, achieve the data, achieve knowledge after which do one thing else. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, I feel the phrase I wrote down there once you stated, “Oh yeah, it could possibly be seen as being fastened”, I used to be like, “Or releasing”. And then you definitely used that phrase freedom, as a result of I feel in what you simply described, “what if” really works in a number of methods as a result of firstly it pulls alternative in the direction of us, it kind of encourages us to take small nudges in the direction of issues that really we’re actually occupied with; but in addition, it helps us to reframe. A few of these examples you have been simply sharing then are literally actually good reframes in these moments the place we regularly really want them as a result of perhaps, for instance, 4 gigs in, you’d had a very dangerous gig and also you’d not gone, “Okay, what if that dangerous gig goes to assist me be even higher tomorrow night time, and perhaps really tomorrow night time goes to be the perfect night time”, you may cease. And also you might need stopped one thing you went on to then actually take pleasure in, and then you definitely’ve bought a lot extra studying to come back. So, I feel this concept of at all times being a piece in progress and doing that by way of a lot of experimenting, I feel is that kind of studying mindset that everyone wants of their Squiggly Careers. And I spot when individuals begin to do that, we discuss having a create-not-wait perspective in relation to your profession. What you have simply described is a very good, sensible realisation of a few of that mindset that we need to assist individuals with. One of many stuff you at all times do in your ebook, so I really feel such as you at all times do, and partly as a result of I at all times suppose in all probability about your podcast as properly, you do share examples of each actually well-known and actually attention-grabbing — perhaps generally they’re related, generally they’re completely different — people who find themselves actually good examples of what you are describing, so well-known individuals.  Or generally I really hadn’t heard of them, after which you’ve got me googling, you’ve got me in all types of rabbit holes.  I used to be like, “Oh, who’s this individual?” I would not heard of them, so I felt not very properly learn. However there are some those who I feel we might all know that you simply talked about, so I simply questioned should you may give us simply a few examples of individuals you’d level to the place you kind of say, “They’re fairly Joyful Excessive Standing”, and we see that and spot that and will recognise that. Viv Groskop: Yeah, what I am at all times attempting to do is level out that Joyful Excessive Standing appears to be like completely different on each single individual. So this isn’t about, “Oh, let us take a look at George Clooney”. Like, I inform an instance of — Sarah Ellis: You do discuss George Clooney a bit, which I do take pleasure in! Viv Groskop: He is a really apparent, stereotypical, charismatic, Joyful Excessive Standing individual, and I do not need individuals to fall into the entice of pondering, “Oh no, I’ve to make myself into the Hollywood star model of myself. It is fully intimidating and unattainable for many of us. So, he is a very nice stereotype of a specific sort of Joyful Excessive Standing. However for me, a very helpful one which I feel makes it click on for lots of people is Greta Thunberg. And, you already know, there isn’t any two individuals extra completely different than George Clooney and Greta Thunberg. She’s, for me, an instance of any person who has this quiet, managed, virtually reclusive Joyful Excessive Standing, the place she’s bought this very light power, she speaks very slowly, bear in mind she’s talking her second language; she has Asperger’s syndrome, she’s self-confessed depressive, you already know, she was depressed and off faculty for 4 years earlier than she began out as an activist and a superb public speaker. What I like about her instance is that she exhibits you do not have to faux to be one thing you are to not be heard and to attach with individuals. You will be genuine, you do not have to be good, you already know, she’s not good. She typically hesitates in her talking, she typically speaks virtually uncomfortably slowly, however there’s one thing very real and really actual about her to me. I feel she’s very snug in herself, even within the moments when she’s proudly owning the truth that she is broadly uncomfortable.  She’s fully open about that, and he or she’s made her personal peace with it. And I feel individuals actually perceive what that’s, and it is positively one thing that may be very new. You would not have seen that sort of confidence, if we will even name that confidence, 50 years in the past, 30 years in the past; it’s totally new. So, what I am encouraging individuals is to say that no matter your Joyful Excessive Standing appears to be like like, seems like, appears like, it is likely to be one thing that we’ve not seen but. You consider Greta Thunberg, you consider even Zelenskyy, he has a totally completely different sort of Joyful Excessive Standing, in all probability nearer to George Clooney than Greta Thunberg. However his management fashion, which is extremely casual, reassuring, empathetic, a sort of very gentle, gentle gravitas, you would not have seen that in a pacesetter 20 or 30 years in the past. That is one thing model new for individuals to consider. Jacinda Ardern, unbelievable empathy in the way in which that she speaks, openness, generosity. Sanna Marin, the previous Prime Minister of Finland, additionally a very attention-grabbing one to have a look at. Then proper on the opposite finish of the spectrum, I like wanting on the footage of Chris Rock when he was slapped by Will Smith on the Oscars. On dwell tv, he needed to suppose to himself, and you’ll see him pondering it, the place is my Joyful Excessive Standing? As a result of he needed to proceed talking dwell on tv to return to digicam and say, “Effectively, right here we’re on the Oscars”, and so forth, and you’ll see him, simply his eyes are dashing off to the facet to ask like, “Do you really need me to proceed? Are we not going to a break?” And that occurs in a cut up second after which he offers it, “Oh no, we’re not going to a break, I have to be Joyful Excessive Standing, I must preserve this going”. So, very attention-grabbing to see how that works in his sort of dynamic Joyful Excessive Standing. So, attempting to point out individuals there are such a lot of other ways of doing this and reminding individuals as properly that I give these examples to not say to individuals, “It is advisable to change into a well-known individual; it is advisable change into a politician; it is advisable host the Oscars”. I say these examples as a result of we will image them, that is why they’re helpful. However they’re helpful whether or not you are doing a job interview, whether or not you are doing a troublesome telephone name, they’re all methods of pondering, “Effectively, really, what does that management appear like and management of the self appear like; and what if I could make it up; what if no one’s seen it but; what if it does not appear like one thing that we have seen earlier than?” as a result of all of these examples are issues that we have by no means seen earlier than. And after we noticed them, we’re like, “Oh, yeah, that works”. Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I feel that is what I discovered reassuring. Truly, once I learn The right way to Personal the Room as properly, as Joyful Excessive Standing, I feel in each of these, you might be very clear.  There’s a lot of sensible workouts and concepts, after which interspersed with some analysis that you simply talked about alongside the way in which, after which examples; you are not saying, “Here’s a playbook”, as a result of I am at all times very suspicious of the ten-list, silver-bullet books, the place you go, “Effectively, do these ten issues, after which that can equal this factor”. And it is the implication of like, all of us must observe the identical method, which simply feels too simplistic in a sophisticated world. And so, really it feels extra accessible for us all to suppose, “Effectively, what does this individually imply for me; what’s my contribution; what does Joyful Excessive Standing appear like for me?” And it is at all times a good thing about hindsight, is not it? I definitely spent the primary a part of my profession pretending to be one thing I wasn’t as a result of I believed that was what was wanted. Now, it wasn’t actually anybody ever saying that to me, however that was extra, you already know, I used to be in environments with a lot of extroverts, I felt that whoever spoke probably the most bought seen probably the most and progressed probably the most. So I went, “Okay, properly, I is likely to be an introvert, however that is principally not an possibility if I am bold in my profession. And I’m bold in my profession”, however then it is actually, actually laborious work. So, I do not suppose I accessed Joyful Excessive Standing very ceaselessly, since you’re spending a lot time and power pretending, primarily, and doing one thing that is actually distant from actually who you might be. However then funnily sufficient, as soon as I began to kind of be a bit extra accepting of myself, and I feel a few of that did additionally include my very own self-belief, I then clearly progressed a lot faster.  And you already know, with the good thing about perspective, no shock that then as soon as I began to only be myself and to determine, “Okay, properly I do not have to be the identical as my extrovert boss, I needn’t have faith in the identical manner that they’ve it. I can kind of do it in my manner”, properly really, I used to be so a lot better, I used to be simply so a lot better at my job. And clearly, you simply take pleasure in it a lot extra as properly. Viv Groskop: Yeah, completely. And that’s, once more, the what-if mentality is, “What if I can belief myself; what if I am already okay the way in which that I’m; what if I’m sufficient; what if I really know the way to do that and all I must do is simply have a go?” Sarah Ellis: Yeah. And so we at all times end our interviews — and we can have completed our interview, our first one collectively, with the identical query, Viv. So I am going to return, discover what you stated the primary time, after which examine it to this time, simply to warn you — by asking all of our company, all of our Ask the Professional company, what is the one little bit of profession recommendation that you’d cross on to our listeners? So, generally it could possibly be phrases of knowledge which have labored very well for you, may simply be some issues that really feel very related for the place you might be in your life proper now, or perhaps one thing that somebody has instructed you that is simply actually caught. However what do you need to depart our listeners with as we speak? Viv Groskop: I ponder if I am repeating myself as a result of I have never listened to that episode shortly, however I am going to take the chance of repeating myself as a result of — Sarah Ellis: That simply means you are constant.  That is an excellent factor, proper? Viv Groskop: My dad has a chunk of recommendation that I at all times adopted from childhood and I used to jot down it on the high of my examination papers. It might be so humorous if I stated this final time as properly. It is KISS, Preserve It Easy Silly. I seemed it up some time in the past and it was really some topic of like a self-help ebook within the Nineteen Sixties or one thing, or it was one thing from the US Navy or one thing. It is a precept of once you’re fighting an thought, you make one thing difficult, you are second-guessing your self, simply write down, “KISS”, Preserve It Easy Silly. I imply, it is a bit bit imply, I in all probability would not let my kids use it or name them silly, however I take it from my dad! And it at all times made me suppose, “Okay, how can I do that the simple manner; what is the easy model of this; what is the ‘silly individual’s’ model of this?” and it simply makes you snort at your self, makes you relax, and makes you suppose, “Possibly I needn’t make this so troublesome. What if that is really straightforward? What does that appear like?” Sarah Ellis: Yeah, and I feel in a world the place it’s totally straightforward to get overwhelmed, Preserve It Easy Silly is just about at all times good recommendation most days. So Viv, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us once more on the Squiggly Careers podcast. I actually loved studying Joyful Excessive Standing. I at all times refer again to The right way to Personal the Room. I am at all times recommending it to different individuals, the ebook and the podcast. Additionally I like following you on Instagram, and that could be a small group of those who I select to observe, as a result of I feel you are at all times humorous and engaging and I feel you are fearless in following your individual recommendation, so I at all times actually recognize that, so thanks a lot. Viv Groskop: Oh, thanks a lot.  I at all times like to have a little bit of squiggle in my life. Sarah Ellis: Thanks for listening to my dialog with Viv as we speak, I hope you discovered it useful. As a reminder should you’ve bought any questions, individuals you want to listen to from, concepts for future episodes, you may at all times get in contact with us. We’re helenandsarah@squigglycareers.com. And you could find a great deal of additional free sources for the podcast on-line. Simply go to amazingif.com, click on on the podcast, and you will find PodNotes and PodSheets. However that is every thing for this week. Thanks a lot for listening, and bye for now.